DAVEY HAVOK
“Can one torture and murder animals whilst living in opposition of recreational drug use? Yes. But, if one opposed his recreational drug use and is dreaming of a world without recreational drug use for a better place and a better humanity, out of respect for oneself and others - to not extend that to innocent creatures doesn't make any sense to me.”
IN EARLY JUNE, FLESH//LESS HAD THE AMAZING OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE A ONE-ON-ONE VIDEO CALL WITH THE LEGEND HIMSELF, DAVEY HAVOK. THESE ARE THE TRANSCRIPTIONS OF THAT CALL.
JIM: I’ve been nervous all week because I sent a DM to you and I was like,“Oh he's probably not gonna answer me,” and then I got a separate DM from Joe!
DAVEY: Oh! Yeah! I'm excited to talk to you. Please don't be nervous. I was thrilled to see what you're doing and honored to have your interest in me participating in it.
JIM: Thank you! It means a lot. I told [Joe] that my first tattoo ever when I was like 20ish was an AFI tattoo.
DAVEY: Oh, cool!
JIM: Yeah. It’s from Sing the Sorrow. Remember the collector book with the sleeve inside?
DAVEY: Sure.
JIM: It’s this one [rolls up sleeve].
DAVEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of the Alan Forbes icons. So you're mm…38?
JIM: Yes.
DAVEY: You don’t look 38. Oh, you look great!
JIM: Thank you!
DAVEY: You’ve got the straight edge. How about that guess? That guess was just based on what you told me, not what you look like, and then I backed off, but I was right.
JIM: Oh, no - you got it. You're actually spot on. I’m 38. And I was also going to say - before we start is thank you, because I was thinking about it a lot during the week - and you're one of the main reasons that kind of pushed me to be comfortable with who I am and expressing myself. I got into AFI in high school - and I also got into wearing eyeliner.
DAVEY: Oh, yeah?
JIM: Yeah. And I was like, “Cool, if he can do it, I can do it”, - and then I was the only one in school doing it and it was cool.
DAVEY: That's cool. How'd that go over?
JIM: Well. A lot of people were upset when I stopped wearing it.
DAVEY: Oh, really? Interesting.
JIM: My first job was at Hot Topic!
DAVEY: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Definitely a different experience in my youth.
JIM: A lot of people were upset at how good I got at it!
DAVEY: Oh. Yeah. Bit of jealousy. Yeah...shade. I got better at it after years and years. But I was never terribly good. I was good at my own face. I eventually figured out how to you know - how to beat my own face. I tried to do it on a skinhead buddy of mine that we were on tour with - massive, massive skin - like in, full regalia, and he's like, "You should try to put some on me." I'm like, “Yeah. Just for fun, right?” And I mean, I really could not administer the glamour upon anybody else. But eventually I got okay at it. I'm still not great. I mean, my eyebrows really got really squirrely for a while there, 'cause I'd get on the road like - I had done at home, and then I'd be responsible for upkeep on the road, and I don't know if you ever went that far.
JIM: No, I was eyeliner and dyed my hair black. I tried the liquid eyeliner once, not understanding what it was, and got it in my eye and then never did it again.
DAVEY: I mean, you were lucky. By the time the early 2000’s hit, what we had at our disposal for makeup was such a greater array of, you know, colors and functionality that just didn't exist. Like, I mean, simply, I mean, it, it's, you know, the nail polish of course is not makeup, but it's adjacent. And black nail polish, you couldn’t - you had to wait till Halloween and hoard it, and- I did. I did that too.
JIM: I did that too. My girlfriend in high school's mom was a nail tech, so I was the test subject.
DAVEY: Oh! Oh, that's cool.
JIM: Yeah - because she would do all the art, so I would have all my fingers of, like, Nightmare Before Christmas or whatever she was she was feeling like doing.
DAVEY: One of my buddies who was the earliest people to tattoo me - he would tattoo me in his apartment. He actually did the cover of do you know- I don't know how far back you go with AFI, but have you ever seen the 7” for “Fly in the Ointment?” He did the the artwork for that. His name was Eric Reed, and his girlfriend Danica was a nail tech.
JIM: Oh, that's awesome.
DAVEY: I mean, we're talking this was, you know, 1993 - '94 and she would hand paint little skulls on my nails which I kept long at the time, so I had long natural nails, not like you know, acrylics - mine were natural. And she would paint, just hand paint little skulls or flames. I like to think it was while I was getting tattooed. To be honest, I can picture, 'cause I would get tattooed at his apartment and I can picture myself sitting in his chair. I have actually a photo of me in his apartment getting a tattoo that's long, long gone.
But, I think she would paint my nails concurrently, simultaneously. A little bit of me time, a little pampering. But man, thank you. That's that's quite the compliment that I could usher you into a place of being comfortable with looking how you wanna look.
JIM: It meant a lot, especially like, the whole getting to speak with you one-on-one. I was over the moon because I thought it was just going to be an email correspondence. And then when [Joe] was like, “Oh, are you free for Zoom?" I was like, "Absolutely, I'll figure out how to use Zoom!” I've never used Zoom before.
DAVEY: If it weren’t the ubiquity of this format being the chosen format for interviews, and then in 2020, all of meetings were happening this way. I, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to use it. Actually, the me having this mic and this setup was only because I was doing a radio show for a couple of years on XM where I was a cohost, and it started right before COVID.
And so as it did, they sent people over to get me set up to allow us to continue to Zoom, to do it on XM through Zoom, and so that's why I have this professional setup, otherwise I wouldn't. So, I appreciate you doing this because I can be loquacious, and then you gotta transcribe the screen.
And when I'm presented with something to answer in writing ... I find it difficult for me to truncate myself. And that way, it ends up being volumes and volumes of answers or very pithy answers that I feel - I just feel is disrespectful to the journalist. And I wouldn’t want you to think that I'm, you know, dismissing what you're saying by being too brief.
Meanwhile, I read over your questions pretty quickly, which I don't really like doing. I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't anything that I didn't wanna answer which there wasn't.
JIM: I took out a couple things because I didn't want it to be redundant with things that you've answered before.
DAVEY: Okay, great. Yeah. Whatever you want, but I read through and I thought to myself, "I can't. I can't write, I can't type this because it would be the way that I will respond will end up being 100 pages." And no one wants that.
JIM: I have a lot of vegan straight edge friends in the scene or people that I've interviewed already and I was saying, “Hey, I'm, I'm interviewing [you].”
DAVEY: Oh, cool!
JIM: And I asked them,“What do YOU want me to ask?” And a lot of them, unanimously, said they saw the Hardlore Podcast and they were like - “We wanted to hear more of THAT!”
DAVEY: Oh, great. I agree!
JIM: They said, “We just wanna know more about him growing up vegan, him growing up straight edge - and his influences etc.” So, I reworked the questions a little bit just because I re-watched it a couple times during the week.
DAVEY: I know we're gonna be here a minute. I'm already in. Get some tea, Joe!
JIM: I feel that veganism in music isn't spoken about enough. There's a lot of people who are vegan. There's a lot of vegan bands - but it's not like, "Why are you vegan? What made you this way?" So we generally start it with a little blurb written by the individual or the band just explaining themselves, like a little introduction. I know you don't need an introduction, but whatever you wanna say.
DAVEY: Do you want me to do that, give a little bio?
JIM: Yeah. And then I'll be forced to transcribe it [laughs]. It's usually just a couple sentences, but it could be as long or as short as you want.
DAVEY: Okay! My name is Davey Havok. I have been making, recording, and releasing music for 35 years now which began officially with AFI, which I am one of the founding members of. We began in 1991, and continued on with Black Audio, Son of Sam, Dream Car, Extremist, and Ramones X. I think that's it? I mean, I've...You know, I just actually did something with Lane 8 which was very fun, and I’ve done work with him before, and Seven Lions. There's probably some stuff I'm, I'm leaving out. Am I leaving out anything, do you know? I hope not. I mean, I’ve written novels. I've been on Broadway. I’ve been in a couple movies…
JIM: Your Substack!
DAVEY: Oh, I just really enjoy writing. Which is why we're speaking right now, rather than writing, to spare you the verbosity. But yeah, so I've been doing that Substack, which is a whole different story. But, actually some of those stories will probably come up in what we're talking about now.
I discovered veganism through punk rock. I - from a very young age, I was very enamored by alternative culture, alternative art, alternative music, and, you know, without really recognizing exactly what that was at the very, very early ages. Because when I say young age, I actually really mean five years old, seven years old, eight years old. And when I was that young , and I feel like this was discussed on Hardlore, so you may stop me if you like, or if you want me to expand on any of it. When I was that young, it was the early '80s which is painful that I'm that old.
But, it was the early '80s, and there was the British invasion of what people were calling new wave after the explosion of, of punk rock in the ‘70s. And so by the early '80s MTV had started and had exploded, and the visual element to what was a new style of music was very compelling to me as well as the sound. And, you know, I was looking at people like Adam Ant and Grace Jones and Devo and Boy George and so many very unique individuals making very unique sounds, and that really appealed to me from a young age. And you know the list of those people you could probably name 80 to 90% of who was getting played on MTV or Night Flight or Friday Night Videos in the early '80s, and that 80, 80 to 90% of them I loved as a little boy, a literal little boy.
That led me to punk rock and, what is so wonderful about punk rock and what defines punk rock really, if you get down to the ethic, is punk rock questions “Why?” It questions standards. It, it questions the status quo and the institutions and say, "Why are you..." And, you know, and ask, "Why are you behaving like this?" Pretty quickly when you get into those type of questions, you get into animal rights, and you get into vegetarianism and thereby veganism. So without me knowing that, I got into the music and the look and explored the content, and you could not avoid information about animal rights early on in punk rock.
You're looking at, you know, Siouxsie singing “Skin”. You've got the whole Wax Trax animal liberation compilation. Skinny Puppy was very forward about it you know, and then MDC and Growing Up. Once I became part of the 924 Gilman Street scene, it was very, very pervasive. And this is aside from the straight edge community.
Like the animal rights message was infused in the music I was listening to before I'd even heard of the straight edge subculture. And so I was aware of that. Was I a vegetarian? No. But I was very aware of it, and from a very young age, did I internally know that the right thing to do was be a vegetarian? Yes. But, as we all know, there are countless reasons that people don't listen to that inner voice throughout their lives. So yeah, that's how I first got exposed to it. And then it was the straight edge community that really... Well, it was both. I mean, I was vegetarian for two years before I became vegan knowing that veganism was the right move. I just you know I wasn't ready to make that move for a few reasons, none of which were good or sound reasons. None of them are.
JIM: I was rewatching a bunch of your - I don't mean to interrupt -
DAVEY: Please do!
JIM: - but I was watching a bunch of your videos of other interviews, like old ones, like 13-year-old ones. I was watched a bunch of them - like all your PETA stuff. And you mentioned that you were not, for lack of a better term, you thought it was too trendy.
DAVEY: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it was too trendy. It was conformist. I, within my community, I know that's ironic on a larger scale, but especially at, at that age. And being so immersed in the, you know, the sanctity of that sanctum that is the punk rock community and then the straight edge community, it was really clear to me that it was a trend, and I, I never liked being part of a trend.
Now, this was the only trend that, that I should have- you know, that I should have been a part of. But I could see clearly that people were identifying as vegan as a means to have an identity, as an excuse to be part of something that they didn't believe in. And honesty is something that's very important to me- as is respect. And dishonesty and being disingenuous is just repellent to me. It’s a lot of what deters me from being able to accept a lot of music and art movements because I think it lacks genuine intention and is presenting itself as something far other than what it truly is and is truly trying to achieve.
And thereby, when I was surrounded with this culture of people who were using veganism as that identifier, I just didn't want to be associated with them in that way. As you know - I think I mentioned this on the Hardlore - but it turned out unfortunately the majority of those people were not in fact vegans.
You know? It it was an excuse to be part of gang, to be interesting, to be other, to be violent to be criminal. But my friend RJ said, "Stop being an idiot. You know, this is the right thing to do." I read“Diet for a New America" and that was that.
JIM: Whenever anyone asks me why I'm vegan, I say,“Well, I like animals and I feel like an asshole eating them” and they're always like, "Oh, okay."
DAVEY: Yeah. Yeah. It's really so basic. I read one of your questions that you ask people, I don't know if you're asking me this one, but, you know, one of the questions you ask, and I think it's a great question, “is veganism fundamentally political?” Absolutely not. Unfortunately, it's practically political. It's relatively political, which is, you know, horrifying that we're politicizing whether or not it's okay to torture and murder animals. How - how is that innocent creatures? How is that political? That's just - to me, that's just a fundamental ethic. But because it is not fundamentally political but relatively political to unfortunately, definitely the Western world if not all of modern culture, and then when you infuse religion in - and the majority of religions saying that animals are here for us to murder and torture - for our own enjoyment then we get to the place where, where we are, - where you know - people are taught that that is not only an okay thing to do, but the right thing to do. And that's sad.
But again, back to what I was saying - it was punk rock that - Me, Davey Havok, author, actor, singer in AFI - into living a life of compassion.
And it's not just for the animals...as I was educated on ... and that, of course, is what ties veganism to straight edge. Straight Edge, as you know, is, and straight edge being a part of the straight edge philosophy looking toward bettering yourself- and bettering the world through bettering yourself. It's very clear that we all are, as homo sapiens, vegetarians. And to be consuming animal products is just destroying our own bodies in addition to the world and the innocent lives of those animals that people insist on eating, unless they're dogs.
I’ve never really thought about this, but I thought that I'd like to start saying, when people ask, "Are you vegan?” I think I'm gonna start saying, "Everything but dogs. I only eat dogs. I eat dogs... horses, cats. Fish, but only goldfish, only pretty ones. Only the nice looking ones. I won't eat chickens, but I will eat parrots.” Very specific. How about that? I don't like those animals, that's why I eat them. I mean, the point is these are the only animals that people deem worthy of not murdering and eating.
JIM: I saw a graph - and it said something like, “Where does one stop and one begin?” But it was in a weird order. It was pets and then “normal” animals people eat - but it was out of order - so the dog was before the horse and it was intentionally confusing people [in the comments].
DAVEY: Yeah. I mean, it's totally illogical!
JIM: Anyways, what else? So the you kinda answered a lot of the first part. One of the first question was “What was the moment or experience that first pushed you towards veganism?” And I know you mentioned listening to Minor Threat and East Bay. Did you want to elaborate on that anymore or expand on that?
DAVEY: Yeah! Well, I first heard of veganism certainly through Ian MacKaye and Fugazi. Because when I was, you know, when I was a teenager, it was the late '80s and early '90s, and by that point, we were between Minor Threat and and Fugazi and/or on top of Fugazi. I knew that Ian was vegan and then from the literature that was everywhere at Gilman Street, I started to learn about you know, the truth about factory farming.
And I didn’t know like a lot of people don't know. You just don't know that - “but I eat eggs” - well, how do you get [ those eggs ]. How are those eggs being delivered to you and where are they coming from? And that is the utter, brutal, brutal torture of chickens.
JIM: I had to explain to a coworker the other day what a dairy cow actually was and they had no idea.
DAVEY: Exactly! Like people just don't know - and I didn't know. You know - even when I was vegetarian, I knew about veganism and it had to be explained to me what’s happening to the dairy cow and what’s happening to the chickens and the animals. And so from a very young age, I do remember being a baby child having had the epiphany that, "Wait a minute - a hot dog is a pig?"
And my grandparents and my parents saying, "Yeah, that's okay." But like, how does it become hot dog? It's like “Well we kill it” - and just being horrified 'cause I liked pigs and I liked cows. I liked animals, and th-- "Wait, we kill the animals and then eat them?" And then the, the god, the adult, you know, to this creature who just appeared in this world who doesn't know what the world is says, "That's okay” but it didn't feel okay. But then, you know, as we all do, that was repressed until I was old enough to realize, "Oh, that's, that-- No, I was right. That's, that's NOT okay.” That’s really awful. I could never do that. I could ever murder or torture an animal just because I like the taste of this or that.
Which again, we eventually learn that most of that is a learned palate. And we’re acting of course to how we're spicing flesh more than the flesh. And, you know, I talk like this but I, like most humans were raised eating everything and enjoying it. And, you know, it's just a different. It’s - as you know, you come to learn the truth about what food is and what food isn't and you know, and what's happening to these animals. But yeah, so it was as I said earlier, it was the Straight Edge movement that really, really shifted me from considering all of this to becoming a part of the vegan community because in the early '90s, as we talked about earlier, it was very pervasive.
Of course you had Fugazi and Ian [MacKaye] talking about it, but then you of course then had Karl [Buechner] by '93 growling about it in the songs...very explicitly and very poignantly. And what Earth Crisis did to the scene and shifted the scene was really unlike anything that had happened before within music in relation to animal rights and they really got their message across that way.
It actually got me into listening to heavy music of that nature - more metal music. I wasn't listening. A lot of it, like I would talk to Eric Ozenne [of the Nerve Agents] because my favorite hardcore was the original Los Angeles hardcore and the original DC hardcore which didn't have metal elements to it at, at all.
And Eric Ozenne and I would talk. He'd be like, "There's this new hardcore band, Dave. You wanna hear it?" I would say, "Is it metal? Is it metal?" I don't wanna listen to it if it's metal.” - “No, it's melodic. It sounds like Uniform Choice” - or you know. But Earth Crisis really is responsible for spearheading the vegan community within hardcore in the early '90s.
Of course, there was Youth of Today and Shelter happening but then that was tied to Krishna, which changes things. And they weren't as frequently explicit. They didn't dedicate their entire existence to the animal rights movement like Earth Crisis did. And so, there were many, many kids around wearing vegan T-shirts, wearing JNCOs, wearing headbands with dreads and massive gauged ears eating tofu.
JIM: Earth Crisis is what pushed me into veganism. I actually got to talk to to Scott a few weeks ago.
DAVEY: What a guy!
JIM: Yeah, he's great.
DAVEY: They’re great guys and they made such an impact on the world, you know. They influenced a lot of people to go vegan, and some of them remained vegan, you know? But I think that we're around the same age, and I presume, I don't know, what did Scott say? What got him into it? I would've just presumed it was Minor Threat and the DC scene. That changed everything. Because even you know - I don’t know that Ogre was a vegan. He must have been?
But you know, Morrissey - I can't believe I left out The Smiths and Morrissey. I mean, Morris- Moz didn't go ve- it was so- it was so consternating. Moz didn't become a vegan until the 2000s.“Meat Is Murder” and all of his animal rights was really happening and very prevalent in his live shows, but he wasn't an actual vegan until much later.
JIM: He [Scott] said indirectly Youth of Today. They’re what introduced him to it because it put him in the crowd of of vegan straight edge kids.
DAVEY: Right. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
JIM: Let’s see. Again, so Hardlore. For you - how connected are veganism and straight edge? Do you see them as inseparable or distinct choices? Because I've seen the clip of you. I've seen it many a time. And someone told me to bring this up as well.
DAVEY: Are they inseparable? No. Straight Edge - well straight edge is a philosophy of self-respect and respect through others through opposition of recreational drug use. Can one torture and murder animals whilst living in opposition of recreational drug use? Yes. But, if one opposed his recreational drug use and is dreaming of a world without recreational drug use for a better place and a better humanity, out of respect for oneself and others - to not extend that to innocent creatures doesn't make any sense to me.
JIM: Yeah, neither does it to me.
DAVEY: It just doesn't make any sense. I don't understand, and I have very dear straight edge friends who do not extend that to the innocent creatures. I've had conversations with them about it. I never get any explanation that makes any sense.
JIM: Yeah, I don't understand it.
DAVEY: I simply don't understand it. I understand what moral dissonance is. I do. But when one is participating in a philosophy and a movement such as straight edge that really deconstructs a moral dissonance in regards to drug use, how it can maintain that moral dissonance for animals, because we as humans aren't great, man.
JIM: Yeah. I know.
DAVEY: Like, you know, in defense of humans, well, I mean, we are, but there's a lot that we do wrong, such as torturing innocent creatures. So I have friends who are vegan, but not straight edge, and that makes sense to me. I can understand that because you're doing it for the animals. You're not doing it for yourself. You know? You’re willing to you know, destroy your own mind and body and perhaps your relationships and harm human beings, but perhaps you're thinking, "Okay, well, these are not innocent people. I am not an innocent people. I have no interest in myself,” but the cows and the pigs didn't do fuck all to us, and we're here in their world. So I get that more. I understand that more. I don't think that is a helpful choice But yeah, I don't get it. You know?
JIM: There’s a couple bands that I had interviewed that weren’t straight edge bands, but they were either vegan or had vegan members and I would have to tweak the questions so many times that I just put a disclaimer for when I send the questions that says like, "There are vegan straight edge questions. If you are not straight edge you don't have to answer it, or you can pretend it just says vegan."
DAVEY: Yeah ... you can interpret it either way.
JIM: That’s why I email the questions. The goal was to ask everyone the same questions to see their interpretation of said question…
DAVEY: Sure.
JIM: …to kinda get like a consensus of what everyone's thinking. So like the political question for example - some people were like, "100% yes it is," and then a lot of people were like, "Absolutely not.” So, it’s good to see.
DAVEY: It’s not. It's simply not. Use the word fundamentally. You know, politics are a construct of culture. Eating is survival.
JIM: Yeah. I worded questions intentionally to see how people interpret it. So to elaborate on the last question, and I think I know the answer, but do you see veganism as an extension of straight edge or its own independent stance?
DAVEY: Well, I see veganism as a natural extent its own entity that is naturally connected to straight edge through the philosophy and ethic of the straight edge movement and lifestyle. It makes the most sense that when one is educated on it and when one is educated in both philosophies and both lifestyles, that one would connect them. It just makes the most sense.
JIM: Yeah. It's funny. It’s funny 'cause when you said "I don't look like I'm 38," whenever I go get like my annual physical, my doctor's always like, "What are you doing? Your blood work came back amazing. It’s better than people in your age group." I'm like, “Well, I'm vegan. I don't eat meat, dairy. I don't smoke, drink. The only thing I do is I drink soda. And they're like “Well, whatever you're doing - it's working, so I can't tell you no."
DAVEY: I mean, they shouldn't tell us no. I mean - the straight edge movement is based in science. I mean... we're scientists, except we're very uneducated scientists.We just know the fundamental premises - premise of healthful living. You know, and that goes for diet as well. I mean, there are just some basic concepts that we learned as very young people that continue to apply. And the doctor should know that.
JIM: Right? Yeah. It's like, "You tell me, Doc! You know what I'm doing." Every single year she's like "Same stuff? Still vegan?” I'm like, "Yep." And she’ll say, "What are you doing differently?" I saw her a couple weeks ago and I was like “I don’t know? I joined a run club?” She's like, “Great! Keep doing what you're doing.”
DAVEY: Watch those knees, young man. Watch those knees.
JIM: I have the worst knees!
DAVEY: Oh, geez.
JIM: Yeah. And a lot of people don't know that I'm vegan, because everyone sees vegans in their mind as skinny and malnourished.
DAVEY: Sure.
JIM: The joke is that I'm built like a fridge. I'm 280+ pounds and I'm 5'9". I'm very dense. So everyone's like, "You're not! How do you get your protein?" I'm like, "I get it."
DAVEY: It’s crazy. "I find it." It is so frustrating that we're back to the protein lie again because of Trump, you know? And the, the quote-unquote real food. I'm like, "We're doing this again with the protein?" Holy shit. I thought we got through, I thought we got through this.
JIM: Oh, no. I just say I eat a lot of peanut butter. Yeah. It is all I eat. I eat food.
DAVEY: Yeah, food. I eat food. You know? I eat things other than, you know, fast food and, and snacks and, you know, strange chemicals and, and saturated deep-fried fats, animal fats. Science. Straight edge science.
JIM: I get into like, “safe foods” that I'll get really into for a while. And right now it's salsa. Like - I’m really into salsa.
DAVEY: Oh, man. The taqueria near my house has three great vegan salsas. All the salsas there are vegan. It's a mainstream one that I go to, but their salsas are vegan and they're fantastic. You know what, like, something that the, the AFI likes them too. All of AFI like them. There's a bar that I just ... it's the best bar. Are you familiar with Raw Rev Glo? Check it out. There's nothing in it. It's raw. It's a protein bar. There's some chia seeds. There's some nuts. It's slimy yet dry at the same time. But within the world of that very, very clean macro style bar- it's kind of delicious. And just, just healthy. It’s the best healthy bar I've found. There's no sugar in it. Raw Rev Glo.
JIM: There’s this vegan jerky that I was really into called Primal, and I was try-
DAVEY: Oh, I remember those.
JIM: Yeah, and I was trying to explain it to people.
DAVEY: Those have been around a long time!
JIM: Yeah, and I was trying to explain it to my buddy who's also vegan. I was like, "You should get it." Like, 'cause they still exist, but I was like, "You should get into these.” and he's like, "Well, do they suck?" I'm like, "This sounds weird, but it's really good 'cause it's wet."
DAVEY: Right.
JIM: He was like, “What does that mean?" And I'm like, "You just gotta try it, man." Yeah, it's wet.
DAVEY: Yeah, it's wet. Yeah. That's funny. I had forgotten about those. Those were one of the - those have been around a long time. I remember early trips to Europe ... buying a bunch of those and throwing them in my backpack for the flight. 'Cause flying, you forget about it. I mean, even now, I still don't, I still plan on never eating on a plane. I pack peanut butter and jellies. If you ever see me walking through an airport, I promise you I have multiple peanut butter and jellies in my purse.
JIM: Peanut butter is my, like -
DAVEY: Yes!
JIM:… if I could, if I could eat one food for the rest of my life, it would be peanut butter. Whenever someone's like, "What do you want?” I'm like, "Peanut butter anything. I don't care."
DAVEY:Yeah. "Just peanut butter." Same. I'm with you. And on tour, that's mostly what I eat is peanut butter. It’s delicious. But yeah, back then there was no food anywhere, and those, those Primal, I, gosh, I feel like they, that, if my memory serves me, I feel they, like they existed in the '90s.
JIM: They have a very ‘90s font.
DAVEY: Okay. Yeah, I think they- It doesn't look like it changed ... in the late '90s I used to go to Whole Foods. Do they still have hot bars at Whole Foods, or did Amazon get rid of all those?
JIM: It depends. So, like, over here, it depends on the size of the Whole Foods.
DAVEY: Okay. Okay.
JIM: But a lot has changed after COVID. I would get sandwiches made, but now they just do pre-made. You can't just have them make it for you.
DAVEY: There was a burrito bar at the Oakland Whole Foods right on the edge of Berkeley, which wasn't always there. It was, I mean, obviously, but when it appeared there was a burrito bar, and anytime AFI used to go to Europe, like, frequently, and even though we don't really have fans there, we would go and before every flight I'd go to this Whole Foods bar to get a burrito, and they were massive, and then I'd put them in my purse and I'd eat it you know, somewhere over the ocean because you know, the, the flights wouldn't give you any food.
You'd have to advance a what would they call it? They would call it a “strict vegetarian meal”, I think, or - ... or a “pure vegetarian meal”. They didn't use the word “vegan”. And the vast majority of the time you'd get on the plane, you'd say, "I advanced this meal." And the flight attendants would go “What?”
And they’d go, “I’ll go look." And then they'd bring you rolls. Which was nice, 'cause they'd bring me warm rolls from first class and let me eat all those. But they would never have the meals. And so I learned that early on, and then I would bring a burrito.
JIM: I learned going places, like with groups, a lot of my friends are very supportive of me being vegan, and they're all about it - but they'll always apologize if there isn't anything, and I go, "It's 100% fine."
DAVEY: I plan on nothing.
JIM: Yeah. I was like, "I didn’t come here thinking I was gonna be able to eat anything."
DAVEY: Right. I ate before.
JIM: Yeah ... and they're like, "Oh, I feel bad." And I always say, "You have nothing to feel bad about."
DAVEY: No!
JIM: “It's not your choice that I eat the way I eat."
DAVEY: No, what you should feel bad about ... is not me.
JIM: Yeah. I go, "I will find something to eat. It is okay."
DAVEY: Yep. Yeah, I've experienced that for, for many years. Though I'm so lucky that I have a very strong vegan community around me, and then my, you know, dear friends who aren't vegan they're very sympathetic and, and will come to the vegan spots with me happily.
But yeah, eating at mainstream restaurants is, a bummer. Not necessarily because they don't have anything, but it's, you know, it's tough to watch.
JIM: I’ve been to a couple places. I'm not gonna name names, but they would - they had vegan options, and then I would go back and they're gone.
DAVEY: Ah. Well, now, yeah, I mean, we've become very unpopular in the last four years, as you know. Yeah, very unpopular. We had that upswing for a hot second. Where do you live?
JIM: I’m in New Haven, Connecticut.
Davey: Did the huge vegan boom that happened in California in, in like pre-2020, like '18, '19, or '17, around there - did that hit the East Coast, or was that just a California thing? When Beyoncé and Jay-Z were very vocally, "we're gonna be vegan for six months - or a year," that period of time when you know, Miley Cyrus was very vocal about it. Billie Eilish still is. That that family is for real. I wouldn't be surprised if she came on your show!
JIM: I hope one day!
DAVEY: The three of them really believe. But do you, you know, that period of time a few years back...
JIM: Yeah it happened, but not here. Like -
DAVEY: Mm ... Connecticut.
JIM: So I work on Yale property, so I'm around all the the Yale students.
Davey: Oh, I love that spot!
JIM: Yeah?!
DAVEY: I was there... AFI played near there.
JIM: You played in Wallingford. I missed it!
DAVEY: Okay, we played in Wallingford. Yeah. But we stayed near Yale.
JIM: I have this from the show because my friends grabbed it for me. It's signed by you [ shows a “Silver Bleeds the Black Sun…” vinyl ]!
DAVEY: Oh. Oh. You know, that was, that was a really fun show. We, I was, I was dreading that show because we were in this room that was inappropriately sized -
JIM: Really?
DAVEY: - for AFI. It was definitely more appropriately sized for, like- I don't know. I think it was like an 8,000 capacity room, which at no point, not even with radio hits was AFI playing 8,000 people in Connecticut. But it ended up being really, really great. What’s also great is your vegetarian restaurant that's been there since the '70s by Yale.
JIM: Claire’s Corner Copia?
DAVEY: Yes, I love it. She has - I love Claire's.
JIM: Did you meet Claire?
DAVEY: No, I wish I would have.
JIM: She’s very eccentric. She's great.
DAVEY: How old is Claire? She's gotta be awesome.
JIM: She’s an old hippie.
DAVEY: Yeah. Right. I saw the sign. I felt like it's been there since the ‘70s and it, and I, I mean, she's still alive, huh?
JIM: Yep. She has very good macaroni salad.
DAVEY: Oh, I didn't have that. Yeah. I did not have that.
JIM: Yeah, I’ve worked in New Haven in the same spot for 12 years. And then before that I was still in New Haven for three, so I saw the evolution. Like…
DAVEY: Yeah…
JIM: … the other day there was a flyer on a crosswalk, and it said "Vegans," or "Vegans of Yale.” And it had a QR code and I was like, "Oh, sick!” And I scanned it, and it was like, "Are you faculty or a student?" And I was like, "Damn, I'm neither of those things.” I'm just a vegan. I wanna join. I wanna talk to these guys!
Davey: Oh, that's too bad. You should just try to say that you're faculty. See what happens!
JIM: This is a side question about you playing shows. I was thinking about it 'cause when I was watching the Hardlore podcast, you mentioned something...so it was something about your voice. Like, you threw out your voice. The one time I went to Warped Tour -
DAVEY: Mhm…
JIM: It was in North Carolina, and I drove all the way down there to see you.
DAVEY: Uh-huh.
JIM: And you were suppo- AFI was supposed to play midday, and then -
DAVEY: Oh! This is the one where I came from the hospital?!
JIM: Yes. I was at that one!
DAVEY: Did I talk about this? Did we talk about that on Hardlore?
JIM: You, you mentioned something and I was like, "I think I was there for that."
DAVEY: Do you know what? So we were s- like you said, we were supposed to play during the day.
JIM: And then The Used was playing next to you guys, and they went over, so everyone started booing The Used 'cause they wanted you to start playing!
DAVEY: Oh, and I was nowhere on the property. Yep ... if it was daylight, right? Yeah, because I had gotten this fucking bite in a very un-toured area. And I was feverish, I was febrile, I was swooning. I was horribly, horribly sick, and I had to go to the em- to, you know, urgent care. And I remember Smith, our tour manager went to Kevin Lyman, the boss man of that tour, and said, "Hey, Davey's fucked. Can we skip?” And he said, "No. We’ll keep pushing your set until he's back."
JIM: Fuck!
DAVEY: So I go, and they, like, lance this thing and drain it, and it's horrible. And so at that point it was awful too, because I kid you not, that must have been two... that must have been one of the two weeks that we did...'cause we only did Warped Tour it's in... Oh, if The Used existed, then yeah. It was, okay, so it was 2006, right?
JIM: Yeah. Right. It was either five or six, 'cause I was still in high school.
DAVEY: Okay. And I- Because we only did Warped Tour once in its entirety, and then in two, which was 2000, I think, or 2001. And then 2006 we did two separate weeks, which one of those was that show. I, this timestamp is important, because it was during the 15 minutes of fame - ... wherein if one were to go to an emergency room in, what, where was I?
JIM: It was North Carolina.
DAVEY: In North Carolina, one was so much on TV that the attractive people who are cutting open your un-toured places recognize you. Yeah. Bummer. So then I, we get rushed back. Smith's like, "You have to go straight to stage." I already feel terrible, but I do feel better actually once they cut me open and get the poison out of me. I feel better, but I'm still stitched up. And do you remember what happens? I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but I get on stage …
JIM: I remember, was it during “The Days of the Phoenix?”
DAVEY: It was in my recollection, we get on stage, some opening starts, and someone whips a Teva at me and hits me right in the crotch, which was just amazing.
JIM: I didn't wanna bring that up… but I was there.
DAVEY: That’s the - ... that's the story ... d- I- And, and I'm like, "Th- I cannot believe this is happening."
JIM: Can I tell you what happened? Because I remember it, because I'm like, "Damn, this-"
DDAVEY: ’Cause you threw the Teva?!
JIM: I remember - No, no …!
DAVEY: You had a great aim with that Teva!
JIM: No, no, no, because I'm in Connecticut. We drove all the way down to North Carolina to see you-
DAVEY: You’re lying!
JIM: … and I was like…
DAVEY: I was kidding!
JIM: …and everyone was like “Oh, AFI might not play." And I'm like, "Oh my God. Oh my God!” - and then you finally played, and this was during “ The Days of the Phoenix” and the only reason I remember that is because that's my favorite song. And right before the slow part and then it gets, like -
DAVEY: Oh, okay ...
JIM: …that’s when he threw it at you. And you got hit -
DAVEY: Yeah…
JIM: ... and then you dropped. Like, you bent down and they just kept playing the same thing over and over again.
DAVEY: Sure.
JIM: And then the reason I remember it is because you got on the mic and you said, "I wish terrible things upon whoever did that," and then you just went right back into the song. And I was like, "Jesus."
DAVEY: That is exactly what I said - Yep ... even though I don't remember, but you, I... You remember me verbatim. That is a phrase that I learned, that I taught myself after I had...I... There was a riot. You know about the riot in Canada in '96?
JIM: Sounds familiar.
DAVEY: I encourage you to listen, to look for the “Turned Out a Punk Podcast” - it was because of that riot that I met Damian who was not in Fucked Up at the time but was, like, 15 years old and he took me to his parents' house to hide me in the basement to prevent me from being killed by the gang of the bouncers that had been called to come and kill me after, after I...there was, there was a riot. And after that, my beloved friend and then booking agent, Stormy Shepherd... Have you heard this name before? Stormy Shepherd is responsible for sending all hardcore bands across America in like the late '80s and early ‘90s.
JIM: It sounds very familiar.
DAVEY: She booked everybody. She was from Salt Lake. And whether it was, like, Richie's bands or Iceburn or AFI or Rancid and The Offspring, like, she booked all of that. And Stormy called me up and said, "You can't say what you said on stage in Toronto ever again." And I said, "Okay, I'm sorry." But I learned, okay, I can't say, I can't say these things, but I can say “I hope horrible things”, or “I wish terrible things upon whoever did that.” Yes, I wish terrible things upon whoever did that. Which back in those days if there were people who enjoyed doing terrible things to people to avenge people that they cared about - they understood that message.
JIM: Yeah. That's why I remembered it, 'cause I was like, "This is wild." So I've been sitting on that for 20 years.
DAVEY: Yeah, I said that at this venue in the Inland Empire here in Southern California around that time. Or no, no, no, I'm sorry, not around that time, six years, six years prior when someone sprayed me with a with a fire extinguisher on our opening song, which was at that point “Fall Children”. And that’s when I learned how fire extinguishers work, which is they suck the oxygen out of the air. So if one thinks that it is a smoke machine and pulls up his mic and takes a big breath in order to sing and inhales what is fire extinguisher stuff instead of smoke - and it sucks the oxygen out.
JIM: I've been sprayed in the face with one.
DAVEY: Yeah! It's not cool! So I was choking. I had to leave the stage. The band had to leave stage. I come back. I, I wish terrible things on the person who did that. Terrible things happened to them, and the show went on.
JIM: But yeah, when you mentioned that I like, "I feel like I was there for that."
DAVEY: You were there! You were absolutely there! 'Cause I don't even remember!
JIM: I was like, should I bring it up? And then I remember something must have happened 'cause you guys left right at the end of the set, they were like, "No pictures. They're leaving." But I got a picture with Adam.
DAVEY: What a great guy that man is.
JIM: Yeah. 'Cause I was like, “Please!" And he's like, "Yeah, sure. Whatever, man."
DAVEY: Oh, yeah. He's just, he's the nicest human being.
JIM: All right. Yeah. Let's see. I don't wanna take too much of your time if you have -
DAVEY: Go ahead!
JIM: Okay. 'Cause we have a lot of questions to go.
DAVEY: Okay. Yeah, yeah!
JIM: Let’s see. Okay, so this question was not in the email, but my friend Sky wanted me to ask this because you're a “seasoned vegan vet”, and you've traveled the world - “What are some memorable places that you've eaten?”
DAVEY: Oh, wow. I c- I mean, what’s my favorite? I had such great experiences at Candle 79. Did you ever get to eat there before they closed? In the uptown, in the Upper East Side of Manhattan? It was by the park. It was, like Lexington and, and, like, between 72nd and 73rd, I think, and it was one of the earliest fine dining vegan restaurants in the world. And it was just such a wild experience to have that. It was something - I'd never had fine dining mainstream food ... growing up, you know? So to, to be able to have that experience and just - really the food was, was beyond anything that was available anywhere else. I was having piccata, which was unavailable. They had cannoli, which to this day, getting a vegan cannoli is near impossible, and they did it! It tasted like fucking cannoli. It was wonderful.
JIM: And when you get it, it's dry. I'm just used to dry baked goods.
DAVEY: Right. Right. This was not, this is, this was phenomenal and you know, Sinead was so sweet. She was the manager and I just, I just lo- the, you know, just deep booths and you know, white tablecloths and, and you know, flattering lighting. And it's funny, when I was... One of the last times I was there the person that I was with pointed out two men sitting across the way. I would not have known who they were but it was the owner of Whole Foods and Bezos.
JIM: Really?
DAVEY: Right? It's- Yeah. Is - Or wait, is Bezos... Is he Amazon? Who's Amazon?
JIM: Yeah. He's Amazon.
DAVEY: Yeah, that type of stuff. They all look - It was them- it was them before it went public that - Oh. Yeah. And, and the person with me is like, "I've heard that," you know, 'cause in the Whole Foods back then stillwas, you know, a bastion of veganism. It was one of the few places where we could go get a lot of things - you know, before it really spread. So that was interesting. But Candle 79 was one of my favorite places. And then back home, another fine dining vegan spot was and is, I'm not sure, you might be able to confirm this for me 'cause I've heard various things about this, but Millennium. Do you know Millennium?
JIM: I’ve have never been to the West Coast!
DAVEY: Oh, okay. So I used to g- let me think. We used to go there, so that was 1996. So I don't, I, I can't place the exact year, but it was the '90s. It was, it might have been as early as '96. But it, maybe '97, '98 is when we started going there. But this was another vegan fine dining restaurant that was below a hotel in San Francisco by the courthouse. And again - it was similar, just elevated dishes - of of you know, there was oh, that I just didn't, I didn't know. You know, I'd never had stinging nettle before. I didn't know what that was. There was a hen of the woods pouch. I didn't know what that meant.
JIM: You’re like, "Where's the peanut butter?!”
DAVEY: Yeah, right! You know, like I was happy to not have the peanut butter! You know, especially then. And yeah, I mean, I could talk about that restaurant for a long time. Alison and her brother were the hosts and she ended up being married to the chef, who actually turned out to be a dreadlock Gilman Street attendee who I didn't know from Gilman Street, but apparently went. Years later, I found out that he and his brother like had reunited over AFI. It’s - anyways, Millennium was amazing. It moved from that hotel to the Hotel California, strangely in the Tenderloin, which is gritty. But the - It was this fine dining restaurant that looked out onto the Tenderloin from the Hotel California. And then it moved to our side of the bay after I had moved to Los Angeles, unfortunately, very close to where I used to live in Oakland. Sadly, I heard that it recently closed after, after all those years, probably like 30 years. Yeah. I think it was 30 years, so it might've been '96 that we started going there. But Millennium was amazing.
Let's think outside of California. What - Well, New York was Candle, and one of my favorites. It's heartbreaking about Eleven Madison Park. I don't know, did you ever get to eat there? Yeah, really, really difficult. Really difficult. The Eleven Madison Park is this Michelin Star restaurant in Manhattan, and the chef flipped it. He turned it into a vegan restaurant, and he was very, very vocal about why he did it. And the fundamental premise was he didn't wanna do that to the animals, and he didn't wanna do that to his customers. And he was very articulate about it, and he was very public about it. And he defended himself in, of course, the chef society and the food world. It - I, I, I'm kind of hesitant to say this, because I really feel betrayed, but my experiences eating there were beyond dining. It, it was some - It was an experience that I, I equate it to art experiences, seeing Nick Cave you know, going to a Broadway show you know, going to The Met. It had that level, and it was hours long - the dining experience. It had that level of artistry and transcendence to it, and it was, it was vegan food. It was absolutely unbelievable, and they did treat me wonderfully every time I'd go there. It was so good, my father’s vegan. My father, when I would be in New York, would fly from the small town he lives in in California - and fly my brother out. And my dad's not, like, a rich guy. It's just the food was that good to take us to a “rich guy” restaurant. Yeah. But really worth it. I was encouraging people, like, look, it's, it's quite expensive, but it's a lifetime experience. Sadly within the last year, the announcement was “I don't want to exclude any customers.”
JIM: Oh, man. Okay.
DAVEY: After - Yeah ... espousing all the reasons to be a plant-based ... chef and restaurant, “I don't want to exclude anybody.” Okay, so you don't wanna ... you don't want to exclude people who refuse to eat anything unless it was tortured and murdered. Understood.
JIM: I’m in Queens a lot, so I’m always looking for places.
DAVEY: Oh, fuck! Yeah. Yeah. Man. So they still have, you know, and I can’t - I certainly do, I certainly would not criticize anybody for going to a restaurant that isn't vegan. They do still have a majority vegan menu so it would probably be an identical experience as long as there wasn't meat sat down at your table. But that place is beyond, I love ABCV. Have you eaten at ABCV?
JIM: I've heard of it, but I haven’t been yet.
DAVEY: It’s, oh, it's wonderful. And you know, I used-- and a great place that was an old New York standard is Red Bamboo, who's owned by this woman, Jade, who's really lovely and came out to see AFI last time we were in Brooklyn.
But, when I was doing Broadway - like she'd keep the kitchen open for me. They, like, close at 11:00. But I would get off stage, and, and this was, this was really a struggle, 'cause I had to take my shirt off and on, in the show every night. And I would get off stage, I would get out of costume, I would get out of makeup, I would rush to have a car waiting for me wherever we w- whatever the street was in Midtown that St. James was on, and I'd get in the car and head over to Red Bamboo’s ... Do you know Red Bamboo?
JIM: Again, I've heard of it, but haven’t been yet!
DAVEY: We're talking, like milkshakes and bourbon chicken and y- you know, they had Danielle's Cakes before anybody had you know, vegan treats, quote, unquote.
So that was one of the few spots that you'd get them out outside of Pennsylvania in the - First it was VP2 and Red Bamboo were connected to each other, and I think her parents owned VP2. But yeah, I would go every night after the show and rush over there to get there in time to eat some bourbon chicken.
But as far as, as worldwide goes, I haven't been traveling internationally a lot since the big AFI records. And back then there was nothing to eat out there, out anywhere. I hear - I've been to Mexico City quite a lot lately and there’s a Gracias Madre down there that has nothing to do with the vegan Gracias Madre here.
As I understand it, they just took the name. The Gracias Madre here is delicious, but it's, it's like California, it's what a non-vegan would imagine vegan Mexican food to be. It's very white people. Not so the Mexico one, which has nothing to do with the California one. I don't know if it's still there in New York, but that is delicious vegan Mexican food. I mean, I could go on about the restaurants. And then of course, Tal Ronnen's Crossroads, which is here in Hollywood, and there's one in Vegas. When AFI just played this festival in Vegas, that we didn't really fit on, and we played during the day at, like, 4:30 or 5:00. And I got off stage and I hightailed it over to Crossroads, ate Crossroads, and then was at the B-52 show at the... Where was it at? It was at one of the other hotels. Not Mandalay Bay, but, not the Bellagio. Anyways, but then, yeah, I went to see Big Fish too. But Tal's restaurant is phenomenal.
It was the first Hollywood fine dining vegan restaurant, and it, it opened, gosh, I feel like it was, geez, over 10 years ago now. And Tal's great. Tal's an East Coast hardcore dude. Do you, have you heard of Tal Ronan?
JIM: Mhm.
DAVEY: Tal you, you sh- he Tal, like, loves Agnostic Front- and, and Madball. And I think he and I are maybe the same age. He might be a little younger than me, or maybe... We're, we're the same age. But he saw AFI in- was it Connecticut? He’s from Rochester. He was born in Rochester. I was born in Rochester. It's wild, but he saw us with Snapcase and Sick of It All in like 1996. But then he went on to be one of the premier chefs in the world. I think if I could... I, I believe the story was that he was cooking for Oprah. Is that right? Sorry, Tal, if I got that wrong. And then he opened this this, this beautiful, beautiful restaurant in, in Hollywood that gives the vibe of “old-school steakhouse" Hollywood. But, then there's big frame photo-photos of the Rolling Stones and you know, Led Zeppelin everywhere, and the... If you listen to the playlist that's going on in there, that's what you're gonna hear, and you're gonna hear Depeche Mode every once in a while- ... if it's late enough.
But yeah, his restaurant is, is phenomenal. But again, like I can't, I can't speak to what's going on internationally. I've heard that when I go to England next month, I'm supposed to eat at Plates. This is what I'm told. I'm sure I'm forgetting the... I mean, there are great... Here’s the thing for anybody listening [or reading]:
There is a restaurant in the Palm Desert called Chef Tanya’s Kitchen, and is one of my favorite restaurants in the world. Again, a hippie woman who learned to make her tempeh from an old hippie. So I don't know if Tanya herself would identify as a hippie, but she told me she, when she went to college in Santa Cruz, and this woman is older than your fruit bat friend here. So when she was in college, probably 10 years before me, she learned to make this tempeh from a Santa Cruz hippie in Santa Cruz. Her food is phenomenal. It's clean. It's not, it, it's, we're not dealing with like, like breaded and deep-fried everything. It really feels like you're having the, the Palm Desert experience. Like, if anyone is out that way, that’s where they need to eat. It's really great. So yeah, I mean, I guess I could go on and on about restaurants all Sunday.
JIM: Let's see. Do you think that the scene today is more or less aligned with vegan or vegan straight edge values from when you started? Which I feel like… it would be maybe more aligned?
DAVEY: Listen, I can't comment on the scene. I wouldn't know. I simply, I simply wouldn't know. So I'm glad to hear you say that it's more aligned. I am not... So I have friends who are very much a part of the scene - ... more so than I. I attend a lot of live music, but none of which has any sort of vegan straight edge connection.
JIM: I gotcha.
DAVEY: And, I was under the impression that there aren't many vegan straight edge, young vegan straight edge bands. Is that wrong?
JIM: There’s a lot of them!
DAVEY: There are?! That's fucking great news! Oh, I didn't know. So, you know, I'm buddies with the Sound and Fury people. Are those bands bands that are playing the Sound and Fury Festival? I mean, in general, is it as, you know, generally speaking. Do you know this festival? It's like the hardcore festival.
JIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DAVEY: Okay, so-
JIM: Yeah, I know Sound and Fury. I know This Is Hardcore. I've been to This Is Hardcore before. I don't know if any of them will be playing Sound and Fury, but I could definitely check.
DAVEY: I mean, just in general, do you see any of these bands play at the festival?
JIM: Yeah, yeah, there's, a lot of them, there’s a big scene over in Europe too.
DAVEY: Okay. Great!
JIM: There's a lot of bands that are, like, vegan straight edge - like young, young dudes. Well, not like... young, but then also, like, people my age and younger.
DAVEY: I mean, as far as, you know, youth.
JIM: Yeah. No, yeah, no, 100%. There are, are there teens and people in their early 20s forming vegan straight edge well, that is -
DAVEY: Really?
JIM: Really - I have - so the whole idea with my page is, like is it just says on the top of the Instagram "submissions open." And I get people that are like, “Hey, I'm vegan in this band. I'm this person." Like, today, I just got a message from a kid that’s not even in a band. He just, he found me, and he's like, "I'm 16. I'm vegan. This is what I believe in."
DAVEY: Woah!
JIM: And it was just... And I woke up to it. He sent it to me at, like, two in the morning, and I looked at it, and I was like, "What do I say to him?"
DAVEY: Oh, I love this. I love this. I didn't get it together till I was 19.
JIM: Yeah. He was like, "I'm 16. This is what I believe in. I cannot consume animals." And I was like, “This kids great, but I don’t know what to say to him.”
DAVEY: Yeah, he is.
JIM: I don't know what to say! ‘Cause submissions usually like, tell me about their music, blah, blah, blah, and instead of a submission, it was just like, "This is me," and it was just - I was like, "Very bold. Thank you."
DAVEY: Like, okay, like, he didn't ask any questions?
JIM: No, not at all. It's usually like, "Oh, I'm so-and-so," - “it would be cool to blah blah.”
DAVEY: Oh, maybe he thinks it was a resume.
JIM: Yeah, right?!
DAVEY: Like, “I'll tell you about me, and then maybe you'll wanna interview me”. Fuck, you should interview him!
JIM: Yeah, my friend was like, "You could do testimonials."
DAVEY: Well, that's great to hear. I'm happy to hear that, like, because, you know, I, I don't listen to aggressive music - ... and I'm not really familiar with what goes on in modern aggressive music unless RJ sends it to me, which he frequently does. He'll say, "I think you'll like this one," and I do. But, you know, unless I have a previous emotional connection - ... with the, the artist or a personal emotional connection- ... with the artist, I tend not to listen to, you know, if Johnny Pettibone or Neurosis didn't make it, I'm probably not listening to it. It's not that I dislike it, it's just that I'm not putting it on and listening to it. Because that stopped with me, like, in the late '90s for the most part.
JIM: So - There's a big resurgence in metalcore now. Like vegan straight edge bands that sound like Earth Crisis.
DAVEY: Earth Crisis, right. Well, good! I'm all for it 'cause it’s great!
JIM: Yeah. I'm one of the people that's like, "Oh, I listen to literally everything.” I know it’s cliché to say that, but if I put it on shuffle, it's all over the place.
DAVEY: Oh!
JIM: Like, I love The B-52's. I love them.
DAVEY: Yeah, you got to. How could one not? You have to hate fun. No one wants to be fun.
JIM: That’s a joke that I always say, “Oh, so you hate fun?"
DAVEY: Mm. Fun hater! Yeah, The B-52's are wonderful, not straight edge. Can't talk about them here!
JIM: Nope! We only have a couple more questions if that's okay.
DAVEY: Yeah, that's fine.
JIM: Do you think that music can genuinely shift people's behavior or just reinforce existing beliefs?
DAVEY: Oh, I mean, I'm a testament to it shifting behavior. You know, it’s music that led me to veganism. And, although I guess I just did say that fundamentally it was an inherent belief that I should not be torturing animals. So I guess that is counterpoint, but I definitely have convinced myself of the opposite. Absolutely, you know, as a young boy, I was like, "Fuck that, that's stupid. I'll fucking kill a cow." It's like, “but you won’t.” But you won’t! You won't. You wouldn't, and if you did, you would never be able to sleep the rest of your life. Nevertheless, that's where I was at, that's where I was at not long before you know, the community and the art that I love shifted me toward that. But there you go. There's a sound. As I said earlier you know, the metallic style of aggressive music- ... wasn't something that I was really into, but the message of Earth Crisis opened me up to that. So that shifted my tastes. And of course, but you know, art absolutely can change people. You know, with- when someone connects to one aspect of a creation, it opens their mind to other aspects of it. And when looking into that detail, they find perhaps that they relate to, you know, pieces of the work that they wouldn't have related to if it were presented in a different way, if it were, if it had a different voice, whether it be figurative or literal.
JIM: Absolutely- when I got into Earth Crisis, I got into them as a metallic hardcore band, and then when I heard what they were saying, I was like, “Oh, okay!”
DAVEY: Right!
JIM: Yeah. 'Cause I was just like, "Oh, these guys are heavy. This is awesome," and then after “Destroy the Machines” - I was like,“Oh, fuck!”
DAVEY: It’s really interesting. It's such an interesting thing because the metal culture was very much not similar to any of the punk rock ethic- in any way. You know, metal culture in the '80s was about competition and sex and, and violence and - ... tough guy and you know, a lo- the majority of that community and that scene were quite quite the opposite of what was going on in punk rock. So that Earth Crisis like imbued those, their, their message with that sound. Where did that come from? Do we know?
JIM: Like - Their sound? I'm not sure. Like, just like metallic…
DAVEY: Yeah, I thought about it in the past because to me when you... well, early Earth Crisis - you can hear The Cro-Mags. You know? You can hear that, you can hear that East Coast, the crossover that was kind of happening in the late '80s with - you know, that, that was less happening on the West Coast. Where you were getting those metallic sounds infused with the hardcore that was happening at CBGB's and the, you know, and the Matinee. So I guess I answered my own question. It's a natural extension- ... of that, and then they just said, "Let's make it drop D. Let's make it fucking-"
JIM: Yeah, you just had to talk it out.
DAVEY: Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's really interesting. I mean, they were really truly revolutionary as a sound and as a message. They're really...what a wonderful, what a fun, wonderful group of guys. Great guys, too. Just five -
JIM: I’m talking to Dennis still. I'm waiting -
DAVEY: Also great!
JIM: - for his interview back still.
DAVEY: Yeah, they're both great.
JIM: It’s - yeah... it's funny because it went from, me being like, “Oh, I love this band. They’re so influential to me," to, like, they comment on my stuff, and we talk on Instagram. And I’m like, "Oh, this is, this is crazy to me. This is-“
DAVEY: Yeah, I have those ... surreal moments in my life that I, that will never, I'll never really entirely understand … with, with artists that really, really made me who I am.
JIM: Like, this right now is, is like, I’m still trying to, comprehend this! Like, that I'm speaking to you one-on-one!
DAVEY: Well, thank you!
JIM: It’s crazy to me because I've also only been doing this, like, a month, and all my friends are saying, "How are you talking to all of these people so fast?” And I'm like, "I don't know! I'm just being honest! I don't know!”
DAVEY: I mean, for me, as I said earlier, I’m unaware about the presence, I'm unaware of the presence - ... of our community in the world anymore. You know, really from my vantage, all I've seen in, modern times for years and years is people selling out. I've just, I've just seen the fall, and the fall, and the fall with without really noticing any new generation of it. So hearing that someone wanted to talk about this and knew what they were talking about was exciting to me. I absolutely wanted to participate.
JIM: Thank you. That means a lot!
DAVEY: Yeah. I absolutely, I absolutely did because I think, you know, of course it's one of the most important aspects of my existence is this community, and I have the vegan straight edge community to thank in many ways for the majority of things that makes my life what it is and makes me happy in life. If it weren't for the vegan straight edge, things would be starkly different. I mean, my... that, that is- ... that is the fun. When people meet my group of friends and are present to this community that I have, a lot of times they immediately recognize how wonderful the people are. And I often get asked like, "Hey, how do you all know each other?" And the answer more often than not is, "Well, it comes back to vegan straight edge.”
JIM: Yeah. A lot of people who I've become friends with through this, I'm like, “Damn, there's a lot of wholesome people out there”.
DAVEY: I mean, there's good - it's good people and, and, you know, fundamentally of course - as we believe, it's a very positive movement that's, you know, looking for positive change on a worldwide scale. And you know, it's just such a small shift in lifestyle that can have such a huge, as you know, huge global effect that starts on an individual level, and then within your personal circle, and then reaches outward just so, so profoundly and so quickly. But yeah thereby hearing that a Tribesman wanted to talk - It made me happy. I'd love to.
JIM: There was just an Edge Fest in Europe, and many of the bands were vegan straight edge bands.
DAVEY: Cool. That's cool! Yeah. That's cool. That's great! I would love for it to continue to exist because, like I said, I think it's such a, you know, a healthful, positive way of living that ... and, you know, as we've seen, the opposite rarely works out. You know? It does. It sometimes does. There, you know, there are exceptions to our rule, our rule, but I think when you get into the finer details our message still applies.
JIM: I have one more question for you because I feel really bad going over an hour, 'cause it's been an hour.
DAVEY: That’s okay. Go ahead!
JIM: To close it out, “What would you say to someone who's on the fence about embracing veganism or vegan straight edge?
DAVEY: Mm. It would really depend on why they're on the fence. I would say, "why are you on the fence?" They probably have an answer. And then I would say, "why do you feel that way?" And depending on what it is - ... I would have a different piece of advice. I think very basically, I would really encourage anyone to search out some of the films or literature - that really highlight what a healthful choice it is to consume a plant-based diet, and that really shed light on the true experience of the animals in the factory farms. And if they could just open their mind to reading “Diet for a New America” or“Eating Animals”or probably one of the many other books that have followed those, or watching “Forks Over Knives”.
JIM: I’ve watched that. I haven't seen it in years, but I remember I watched it in my very early 20s.
DAVEY: Or,“Game Changers”, did you watch that?
JIM: Yes!
DAVEY: You know, for people who think you can't be a strong vegan. There’s a twin study that - actually I have an acupuncturist who I love dearly, who is a friend of mine, who hunts. He's a hunter.
JIM: I never understood hunting.
DAVEY: Listen, man, me neither. Never ever. Never ever. Even when I was eating my grandmother's meatballs I didn’t understand hunting. But, well, I will I say, I do have greater respect for taking that murder into your own hands - or taking responsibility for that act, rather than passing it on and not having to watch - to have the blood on your hands, and not actually have to - ... murder this animal and just eat it. You know, so though I'm now afraid of you I do, I do respect that more than, than just saying, "Oh, nothing's happening here. This is fine,” and not taking responsibility for the action. But I don't encourage either.
Anyway, he’s a wonderful man otherwise - he watched this twin study. Do you know this? There's, there’s - I'd heard about it a couple years ago, and apparently it's very moving, where they take twins, you know, who are identical genetically. One eats a vegan diet and one does not. You watch one get sick and sickly, and you watch the other thrive. And and my friend watched this, and he’s now like, "You know?" And he treats a lot of us vegans, and one of us, Aaron Elliott, is one of the best chefs I’ve ever enjoyed in my life, he does a food service on top of his private cooking called “Meal Ticket”, and was just like, "Davey, I'm getting Meal Ticket for a month straight. I'm gonna try this out." I'm like, "I love this. This is wonderful. You're gonna eat the best food you've ever had - ... in your life, regardless of anything."
So back to your question you know, the first question would be, “Why are you trepidatious?” And then I would point to either this cookbook on how to cook vegan food on a budget or, you know, this film if you li- if you prefer films to books about you know, how much healthier and happier everyone can be when not eating pain. When not swallowing pain and suffering.
JIM: That was everything!
DAVEY: Okay. I'm glad we did it. Unless you have anything still on your chest!
JIM: No! I think we got it. This really meant a lot to me.
DAVEY: Oh, man. I appreciate that. It was fun for me to do. Oh, poor Joe. Oh, no.
JOE: Hey!
DAVEY: Hi, Joe! Still here? Jesus Christ! Have to listen to the straight edge vegans sweating each other for an hour and a half.
JIM: Yeah, it was more like talking about how great we are.
JOE: I’m more informed, maybe.
DAVEY: Kind of you. Generous. Generous. All right. Well, feel free to cut that down as much as you like. Edit, edit away!
JIM: Well, thank you both so much for your time.
DAVEY: Thank you. And yeah, thank you for your thoughtful questions and having me again. I am, like I said, I'm honored to be a part.
JIM: It really means a lot. Thank you. I was stressing it all week. I was like - “Oh, my God, oh no!”
DAVEY: I hope you stopped stressing when you saw my bad lighting and thought, "Oh, this guy's an amateur!”
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